As entrepreneurs, our job is to manage the relationship between risk and reward. The key to dealing with risks is to take action. Taking action, in turn, can bring you closer to your goals. In this episode, Jason Bible and Robert Orfino talk with entrepreneur Casey Eberhart about taking action. They point out some effective ways of dealing with recession if such an event will happen in the real estate industry again. Providing insights about the two real ways to make decisions with regards to real estate, they also dish out some information about some of the basics in real estate business such as gap funding and cap rates. Join Jason, Robert, and Casey on today’s show and discover some real estate techniques and strategies to move the needle forward in your business.
Listen to the podcast here:
Taking Action With Guest Casey Eberhart and Co-Host Robert Orfino
I scared everyone to death with my email. We’ve got Casey with us and we’re going to talk about taking action. A little note, I’ll give you a summary of the email. I’m sure if anybody has been watching any news, the market had a slight little dip.
We had a little bubble. As you refer to it here in Texas, there was a little bit of shifting sands.
It’s ultimately going to be good for real estate. We know there’s a recession coming. There has to be. A recession with regards to the United States versus real estate are two totally different things. Wall Street and Main Street are a little bit different. I will tell you this, out of all these little recessions that have happened over the years, real estate gets more expensive. More people have to rent so rents continue to go up. Builders can’t build so there’s a crunch on supply. If you think real estate is expensive, it will become more expensive through the recession. Everyone’s like, “That’s where it’s going to make all our money.” It’s not going to be a real estate crash. If you’re interested in real estate, you might want to consider getting in now.
We’ll start the show with that premise and discuss.
You’re going to have to take action and do stuff.
We’ve talked about this several times. This market is moving much faster than anticipated. We’re not talking about the 2008-2009 housing crash. We’re talking about this market running away from people because of inflation. The price of the homes are going up so they’re pricing themselves out of the investor range. It’s hard to find a property that is going to work. The standard is, “I’ll buy a nice cute little three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,200 square feet that I can get $1,200 rent on and I’m happy about that.” You have to buy that house for about $100,000. You have to put about $20,000 in and even at retail, you can cashflow.
This recession means that the house is no longer going to be sold for $100,000. It will be sold for $150,000, meaning we’re going to see inflation in the housing market. Once it goes to $150,000, rents typically have a two to three-year lag time. They won’t keep up to the cost of the house and it takes time. We don’t want to lose our tenants by slamming them with a 25% rent increase. You’re going to take $50, $60, $75 a year and finally, it will get caught up around year four or five. Between year one and year five on that property, you’re a “landlord.” This means, “I’m just holding the property. I’m not making any cash. I probably have to take money out of my pocket to pay the mortgage every month even though I have a tenant.” That’s what we’re concerned about. That’s why we’re out here on the street every single day looking to buy more before that $100,000, $120,000 price tag disappears from the radar.
Jason, the article that you’re referencing that you sent out in that email, people can find that at Mr. Texas Real Estate Facebook group. If you’re not on Jason’s email list and you weren’t one of the few, the lucky and the proud that received his controversial email, I know that you posted that same article up in the Facebook group.
There are some other supporting articles in there. Go to the Mr. Texas Real Estate Facebook group and it’s all in there. You are going to see some news that I put in and I’ll have my take on where I think things are headed. Some of the replies I got from the email, one gal said, “Where did you get your crystal ball from?” I said, “I don’t know, 70 years of economic data.” At this point, it’s pretty clear where we’re headed. I said, “You could prepare now.” I had another lady said, “That’s so negative.” It wasn’t negative. You just need to prepare for the reality. At some point, we’re going to go into a recession.You can’t connect the dots moving forward. Only by looking back can you start to connect the dots. Click To Tweet
It’s only negative if their crystal ball and secret decoder pin that they got out of cracker jacks tell them that it’s negative.
There are no participation trophies in real estate.
What happens a lot of times is data doesn’t lie. There are two real ways to make decisions in anything. There’s the data-driven decision-making process or there’s the emotion-driven decision-making process. “I love this house. I’m okay taking $200 out of my pocket every month because I love it. It’s cute, adorable or whatever.” There’s the Orfino method which is, “There’s no emotion in this.” We’re like, “Let me pull out my instant calculator.” As entrepreneurs, our job is to manage the relationship between risk and reward. I don’t know about anybody else that’s out there but if I’ve got my risk and my reward tied to a dollar or in capital, then I want to do as much data-driven decision-making as possible. I joke with our Mastermind’s people when they say, “I think.” I’m like, “What do you do?” You don’t get paid to think. You are essentially nothing more than a data point in somebody else’s decision-making process.
One of the things that Trump used to say before half the country hated him, “If you could manage all the downside then there’s only one thing that’s left.” I always thought that was a fairly wise way to look at if we can identify all the scary stuff and have some way to mitigate it. We at least evaluate, “What is it that I could lose? I can’t mitigate this particular issue but it’s a risk I’m willing to take.” The only thing you have left is a great return.
Robert threw me in the Jeep and we went around and looked at some of your properties. One of the things I said is like, “Tell me the four different exit strategies out of this property.” What’s the exit strategy out of an Airbnb? How do we get rid of it? For me, it took away a lot of the scary stuff because there were multiple exit points. A lot of times people don’t go into a deal in any type of business, whether it’s real estate or not, with any exit strategy ahead of time. In every business I’ve ever bought or participated in, I’ve got the exit strategy planned out. I manage the thing like it’s for sale at all times. That’s how you rock.
It’s the old Stephen Covey, “Begin with the end in mind.” Part of the problem is you’ll get real estate investors that pick one exit. We can only do this one thing with this house and it’s like, “No, there are ten other things that we could do.” Sometimes that one thing doesn’t work out. That’s why you’ve got to have multiple exits.
That’s exactly what we’re looking at. For us, this recession may not be bad because we bought a whole bunch of single-families under $100,000. When all of a sudden that single-family that you picked up for $75,000 is now worth $275,000, it’s not going to be a bad day for us. In real estate, there are many ways to skin the cat.
Let’s talk about the new investor. The guy or the gal that is like, “I feel like I’m at the top of the market. Jason says a recession is coming. The data doesn’t lie and it’s pretty much on its way. Do I hold my cash? Do I throw it at a deal no matter what?”
If you are a flipper, wholesaler or developer, your window is maybe twelve months. You need to get rid of all your inventory. I would not be anywhere near a higher-end priced home as far as I could throw it.
You’ve seen it happening already. We had someone up at our Mastermind. They’ve taken a $100,000 haircut off the price. She’s like, “We’re right at break-even and my gap funders are out of money. That’s not going to happen.”
Before you start throwing down more acronyms, let’s go back to basics. Gap funding, go ahead and explain it, Robert.
Let’s say I’m going to see Michael Bailey and I’m going to get a loan from Jet Lending. They’re going to say, “We’re going to do 90% of the purchase price and 100% of the rehab.” It’s $100,000 and the rehab is $50,000. They’re going to give you $50,000 and they’re going to give you $90,000. You’ve got to bring $10,000 to the table. They charge upfront points. They charge fees to close the loan or title fees to close it. They want to make sure that you have at least 25% of the construction to get it going. That $150,000 loan that you’re looking to take may cost you $40,000. That’s called the gap. Typically, people either fund it out of their own bank account or their mom, sister, brother, brother-in-law comes in. That’s how you start that little investing. You get gap funding to get that going.
The ARV is nothing more than a fancy way to say the retail value of the house. The retail value of the house is going to be $200,000. That’s a good deal, 75% ARV or the retail value. If you’re running in those markets, anything under that $250,000, we feel good about. Anything above the $250,000 mark, we get nervous. We’ve seen it firsthand. Both of us have written checks firsthand. We see that stuff and we’re like, “Over at that level, we’d be nervous to take on anything with the project that would be 70% of the value.” If we got it at 50% of retail value, we would probably do the deal. We’re not saying to stop. We’re saying you’ve got to go deeper.
The only way to manage risk in real estate is to pay less for it. Aside from the pure risk of it catching on fire, just pay less for it. I talked to an extremely experienced investor and he was like, “I’m having to demo my first house because of flood issues.” The new flood maps came out. They said you’re going to have to demolish it. He’s like, “We bought it so cheap, no big deal.” I can imagine with the new flood maps and an inexperienced investor. All of a sudden they think they’re going to do rehab and they can’t.
I got an email from a gal who is like, “My listing agreement is almost up with this agent. We’re trying to flip this house but it still needs X, Y, Z. Here’s what I need to be able to break even.” I’m like, “I’ll take a look at it.” They probably thought it was in the three’s and it’s not.
Here’s the reality. How many of those emails or conversations have we had? It’s like, “I’m just looking to break even.” I’m like, “No, you’ve lost.” What you need to tell me is how much you’re willing to lose? The break-even is a hope. You can hear it through the emails.
Unfortunately, hope is not a strategy.
Tell us how much you’re willing to lose which will tell us how quickly we can solve this problem. That’s the reality of it. We’re going to see a lot of that.If you don’t hone the skill set of how to interact with people, then your marketing is just a message going out. Click To Tweet
You’re going to see big flippers in town and developers. All the cool guys at your real estate club are all of a sudden not going to be there. You’re going to find out they filed for bankruptcy. We’re headed into that portion of the cycle. Let’s start with your question, Casey. You said, “I’ve got some money. What should I do? Should I hoard cash?” Here’s what’s going to happen. I like to call that investment-grade real estate, the stuff that cashflows is going to appreciate rapidly. What happens in a recession is capital goes to money. It goes to places where there’s been a historic value. I saw the WeWork IPO is about to come out. They’re only losing $500 million a year but everyone’s all fired up about the IPO. The smart Wall Street money will not be in the IPO world. They’ll be in real estate. They’ll be in commodities. You’re seeing it with the gold prices scooting on up. The money is going back to those safe-haven assets and real estate is one of those.
It’s a classic recession investment.
You’re going to see this flight of capital ends up in real estate in the middle of a “recession.” Everyone’s going to run around. You’re going to watch MSNBC and Fox. You’re going to listen to Bloomberg on the radio station and they’re all going to say, “What are we going to do? The markets are falling apart.” Real estate is about to get hot. It’s not going to stop because we’re looking for cash-producing assets. Greenspan came out and said, “Get ready for zero interest treasuries.” I’m like, “Are you kidding me? This is insanity.” Rates are going to continue to come down. Cashflow is going to look great for the next few years until these things appreciate so much. Investors are going to drive up the prices on these assets that it’s not going to be affordable for you to go buy stuff. If you’re telling me a treasury produces zero, then what’s an apartment building supposed to trade at?
If we’re coming into an environment where investors are willing to park their money in a safe place which is what treasuries are supposed to be, and you’re telling me it returns 0%, then what should an apartment complex be trading at? We’re at 5% caps, should we be at 2%?
Let’s go back for our beginner real estate people. What is cap rate?
Cap rate is one of those things that makes you feel dumb if you don’t know. We have a $1 million property and we collect $100,000 a year in rent. The easy cap calculation I do is if my gross rent is $100,000, I simply take half of it. $50,000 is left over for debt service and profit. $50,000 to $1 million is 5%, so it would be a 5% cap. You want it to be as high as possible. Typically, we’re buying apartments that are in the double digits, 10% to 11% cap. Because we know what we know, we think we can push it to 13% to 16% cap.
Is it fair to say that A-minus neighborhoods are going to have a lower cap per se and a little bit rough around the edges neighborhoods might have a higher cap? That’s managing the risk and reward.
You want a C-plus, B-minus neighborhood that runs at a double-digit cap. That’s ultimately what we’re looking for. We can’t find that in big 300, 400, 500 units, but we can find it all day long in eight, twelve and twenty-unit properties. That’s what we do.
Cap rate allows you to compare dissimilar assets. You can look at A’s and B’s apartments and warehouses. You can look at a lot of different things and you’re able to assess what is going to give you that rate of return. That’s what it comes down to. What we’re going to see is as cap rates decline, prices go up. That’s the relationship there. We’re going to continue to see more investors pile into real estate because it’s safer than a lot of other investments out there. It is risky but that’s where those dollars are going to go and we’re going to see that in the marketplace.
Casey, our strategy is to find a 10%, 12%, 14% cap. I’m going to take that real estate and run back to California and sell it in a 6% or 5% cap. If the market down in California is at 2% cap and I walk in with a 6% cap in the room, everyone’s going to want to know. I’ve got it stabilized. I got two-year leases. I got Section 8 already under management. I’ve got a good management company. Everything’s been renovated. There’s no maintenance for the next five years. That’s a fantastic product for someone to invest in and I’m going to make a 3x multiplier on it. That’s the big strategy for us and this is why we’re running around looking at this stuff. We’re as aggressive as we possibly can be without burning out. We dance with that fine line. We do all those events, we want to meet people, we go to other events and we’re asked to speak.
I was telling Robert that I’ve only been on the ground for a few days but I’ve immersed myself in your business, your platform and what you do. The thing that rung in my ears from the second I heard it and I can’t shake it, is the fact that Johnny over at Jet Lending and his partners over there put on an event in Houston once a month for real estate people. They put between 800 and 1,000 people in the room. To me, that means they have created such an experience. Having done events, I could throw a number on it and guess what the event would run as the investment on their part. It has to drive massive amounts of volume and massive amounts of businesses. When people look at events, it changes lives because there are smart people in the room that you could learn from.
I’m super blessed that I get to run around and be invited to speak in a bunch of places, but at the end of the day, your guest is in somebody else’s room. Mark my words, these guys will be having their own mega mixer, mega events, some mega thing where they’ll bring all of those people together like Jet Lending is doing, and maybe we can do some cross-collaboration with that. When somebody goes and participates at an event, there is a collective consciousness, a collective clash of ideas, discussions and debates that you don’t get sitting at your house watching Fox News or watching CNN. Get in your car and go participate. You have to get different opinions in order for you to make a smart decision. Robert, I know you sat on a panel over at Quest. Those are the reasons that you are asked into those events. It’s because you can offer the audience member conversation and guidance.
I’m always perplexed and shocked by why more people don’t either run events or go to events. We’re going to give an event and I already know what’s going to happen because I’ve done it enough. What’s going to happen is we can run around and tell people to go to Networking Riches and drop a comment. We’ll send you a link then you can join livestream. We can sit and tell all these benefits. Here’s what’s going to happen. However many people are in the room, they will be looked at differently in the real estate community or in the business community in which they hang out. Everyone’s going to go, “What just happened?” A light switched. All of a sudden, you’re the guy or the gal in the room that everybody knows and everybody wants to talk to and deals are flowing to. What makes you so special that happened over the weekend? They’re all going to go, “I went to Networking Riches.” What’s going to happen is they’re going to go, “I should have done that. I should have gone. I saw you guys talking but I had to clean the pool.” The pool can wait. Go because you’ve got smart people in the room.
What’s always fun, Casey is there are 800 people at that event, but there are maybe six working in the room.
I would even say that out of those six, there are probably four that the room is working for or maybe two.
We all know what we’re doing. We’re all catching each other out of the corner of our eyes. We give each other a little wink and a little thumbs up because we understand how you’ve got to work with this massive crowd. Other people show up and they’re being pushed along by the crowd and I’m like, “We’re going to go stand over here and I know exactly what I’m going to do. I need to make a contact with this person. I want to have this conversation. I’m going to wait and when the opportunity rolls I’m going to move in.” I’m standing there working in the room. I’ve been taught how to work in the room by you. I’m going to this event because I’m meeting three people. I have a plan and I have my sharpie. I have the ability to get in there with my phone, do the texting and everything like that, and I walk away from that event. Every time I’ve been there, usually it starts at 6:00 and by 6:45 I’m like, “Mission accomplished.”
At the end of the day, what this event is going to do for you is it’s going to give you the skillset to pick the lock on the door to the relationship that is currently closed. We’re going to teach you to be a locksmith and picking the lock to open the door of opportunity and communication with people that you don’t or not yet otherwise have the opportunity to be in front of.
Once you figure out how to work in the room, this whole industry opens up for you. I love what Steve Jobs said. He said, “You can’t connect the dots moving forward, only looking back can you start to connect the dots.” I can identify five people in my life that got me to where I am, that got me out of $500,000 in debt and shifted my focus in life. Three of them aren’t ever coming to Houston.Our current comfort zone was once outside of our comfort zone. Click To Tweet
One lives in La Jolla which is in San Diego, California. He’s like, “If I’ve got to go to Texas, I’m going to Dallas and I’m going to visit my family.” He makes it very clear. The other lives in Arizona and he’s like, “I don’t do the road anymore. If I’m going to do the road, I’m going to be watching an event.” He loves the New York Rangers so he goes up there. The two that for sure are still on the road are the ones that we brought Merrill. We had 80 people in that event and that was phenomenal. I brought Casey out because looking back, this was where it started with understanding network, marketing and talked about it.
I’ll tell you the five people. The first guy I met in real estate that connected with me was Kent Clothier. He’s a great guy and has an understanding. He seems like he had a deeper hole to climb out than I did so he resonated with me. I’m still friends with Kent and I wish him all the best. We’ll get him on the radio show at some point but he’s going to dial in. There’s no way he’s coming to Houston. Right after that and it was the same year, I met Casey. Here’s the thing that Kent Clothier always says. He stands up in front of a room with thousands of real estate investors and he says, “What business are we in?” There was this, “Real estate, landlord and investing.” He says, “No, we’re in the marketing business.” We talked about it here constantly that you’re always looking for cheaper money and deals, but how do you do that? By marketing.
That hit home. I’m like, “Of course.” We have to market for our deals. A lot of wholesalers out there think they’re in real estate, but they’re not. They’re in marketing. They don’t embrace marketing strategies or marketing people that come through. They keep pushing this real estate stuff. Once you understand that as an investor, we’re looking for money and we’re looking for deals and that happens through marketing. Within six months of Kent’s epiphany, I went and met Casey, and he threw out all of these ways to have deals and money come to you. I could look back years later and say, “For sure, that was a game-changer.” Those were the lean times we were broke. We didn’t know where our paycheck was coming from. I had to scramble and do a couple of side hustles, which I tell people to do all the time. Go do side hustles so you can get back into this business. Casey, you lead the way on that and I want to thank you. I want to make sure you understand how appreciative both my wife and I are with that. Having you in our life has set us on a rocket trajectory to success.
I appreciate that and what’s fantastic is to watch your success. I can remember in that very first room, if I’m looking straight forward, you’re off to the right-hand side. You were at the third chair from the back on the front end. Helen Brown was right next to you and you were wearing a solar t-shirt or a polo. What’s fantastic about becoming friends and working together is your constant quest for learning and executing on way back what Kent said. We’re in marketing but whether you’re trying to find deals or wholesale and go talk to somebody and have them give their house to you to sell or whatever, at the end of the day marketing is the opportunity for us to further our relationship with a person or an actual investor. If we don’t hone that skillset of how to interact with people, then your marketing is just a message going out. Somebody at some point is going to have to communicate with people. One of the reasons I love that Kent tells us and sets up perfectly with what we’re are going to talk about is, somebody calls us and says, “I’ve got cheap money. I’ve got $100,000 to invest in. I’ve got a house that I don’t know what to do with,” then what? It’s like the old thing where you say, “What business is McDonald’s in?” McDonald’s is in real estate business. It is not in the hamburger business. It’s in real estate and distribution.
Michael Bernoff was another guy who shifted my brain to understand that it’s all my fault. The thing I learned from Michael Bernoff was there is no one to blame in this world except for yourself. You allow yourself to get into bad situations. You put yourself around people that are going to take advantage of you because you want it easy. He does this seven-day phone thing which blew my mind. I was like, “That is amazing.” I walked away from that experience thinking this is all me and I can control whatever is happening to me. When I’m into an environment where I can’t control it, then I have to realize, “What can I do to get out of this under my own will?”
Stephen Hall, who is our Executive Consultant. Everything that Jason and I do, we run by him at a big level. I emailed him 2:00 on a Sunday afternoon and 2:10 I got the response, “Robert, do it this way.” “Thank you very much.” Having these people around us is absolutely critical. I’m happy to share one of those major milestones in my life with everyone here in this marketplace on Networking Riches. I’m telling you, there are so many people around us that are like, “I have two houses and I’m stuck. I have four houses and I’m stuck.” I’m like, “You have to start getting on Facebook.” They’re like, “What does that have to do with this?” I’m like, “You’ve got to get on Facebook. You’ve got to put it out there.” They’re like, “I don’t do Facebook.” I’m like, “That’s why you’re stuck.” They cannot make that connection. It is like gobbledygook.
It’s because people are inside their comfort zone and they’re freaked out to get outside of their comfort zone. At the end of the day, what we have to realize is that our current comfort zone was once outside of our comfort zone. We eased into it. Before you ever bought a house, that was outside of your comfort zone. You buy a house and you’ve bought $7 million of them, now it’s your comfort zone. If I go, “Jason, I want you to look at a 47,000-unit RV park.” That might be outside of the box, but you do seven or eight of them, then all of a sudden it becomes your comfort zone.
I’ll put it in a different way. You are outside of your comfort zone on day one that you got hired by Exxon. You walked into that building and you were out of your comfort. You worked for BP on day one, you were out of your comfort zone. Now, where are you? Now it’s a routine and it’s easy. You have to step out and make that little growth. When we talked about social media, getting out there and all of that stuff, the root education for me was Casey Eberhart.
We’ve got a couple of questions. Our first question is, “How badly does a highway project going near my home affect my property value?”
A lot and not positively.
Unless you can convert the lot to commercial. If it’s a cornered lot and it’s going to face the highway, maybe you can convert that from residential to commercial then it’s not a bad deal. Now you’ve got a gas station or something like that. Someone might be interested in that, but in the short-term, you’ve got a problem.
It could be affected as low as 0% up to a negative 30%.
In a situation like that, would there be something that she could do to make her property more valuable in the imminent domain scenario?
I don’t know and that varies by state.
People get happy when, “They’ve assessed my house at $174,000 but I paid $300,000 for it. I’m winning on taxes.” When the domain comes in, it says, “Your house is worth $174,000, here’s the check.”
“Is it bad to sell one’s home to an investor as opposed to going the traditional real estate agent route?” I’m going to say it’s an issue of time, how fast you can sell that house. You’ve got to sell it quick and if investors are the only game in town and you’ve got four, five, six months, then put it on the market and let our agent sell it for you.
If you’re in Houston, we’re happy to take a look at your property and help you do some research on that. If not, we can connect you to some Keller Williams people, whatever city you’re on.
I’ll tell you how we work. If you got a property that you’re like, “I don’t know what to do with this thing. It needs work and I don’t want to deal with the real estate agent route and having people walk through my home and look through my stuff,” send us a text message at (281) 401-9008. We can run the comparable and tell you what the house will be worth. We can give you an offer on as-is condition or we could list it for you. It’s up to you. It’s risk-free on your part if you want to be done with the house or if you want us to help you list it. We can totally do that.
The other thing is you can also join the group at Mr. Texas Real Estate and post your question inside that group. I know you live inside that group and it’s there as a community to help build the muscle and the skillset of real estate. If you’ve got questions, you don’t like these coming in on Facebook, absolutely awesome. Drop your question in there and have these guys answer it. You’ll be helping other entrepreneurs also move the needle forward on their business.
We would much prefer it to be on Facebook because we can answer the same question once versus the seven or eight texts that come in with the same question. Everyone can share from your questions. Everyone will learn from your question. We appreciate the questions and it also helps a lot of other people. Get in the habit of posting on that group and we’ll be able to do some response. We do live there and we get notifications. This has been another great show. We’re happy you joined us. We appreciate you. This is Robert Orfino and Jason Bible with Casey Eberhart and we’re signing off.
- Casey Eberhart
- Jet Lending
- Michael Bernoff
- Kent Clothier
- Mr. Texas Real Estate – Facebook group
- Keller Williams
About Casey Eberhart
Casey Dean Eberhart has been an entrepreneur since his first business venture at the age of five. At the age of 22, he was made General Manager of a $22 million amusement park. Casey majored in both Business Management and Human Resource Management at Washington State University. After graduating, Casey made his way to Los Angeles where he found himself working as a Production Manager/Line Producer on feature films including the Oscar-winning best picture, “Being John Malcovich.” With his well-earned success in film, Casey started his own production equipment rental company, Atomic Production Supplies.
Casey’s business ventures are in no way, shape or form limited to entertainment. His love of business and his love of the “art of the deal” have taken him into uncharted waters time and time again. He has owned businesses ranging from a lingerie store in an adult nightclub, to a Gymboree for the betterment of children, to an online T-shirt company.
His need to learn and grow constantly forces him down new paths and at the onset of the real estate boom Casey made his mark with purchases of homes and condos in both Los Angeles and Las Vegas. His willingness to try something new and his desire for knowledge is his catalyst for his continued success. Business is a skill and Casey hones his skills with ongoing study of his trade. He is an avid member of Toastmasters Intl., a voracious reader of business development publications and he attends training conferences and seminars in a wide variety of fields. He is also part of Business Networking International, Long Beach Community Business Network, The Network for You, and many other organizations.